In this post I’m going to explain the production phase of a logo design project and cover all of the individual variations and formats for a finalized logo design that are necessary to send to your clients. Take them through the logo design process and show them how your concept meets their criteria. The table shots of logos, business cards, iPhones may be right for creating our profile. Paul Galbraith’s second article.. That stuff comes after they decide on one of the concepts. Here’s what logo presentation pros told me about harnessing the power of logo mockups: Include mockups to show the logo in use in real world situations and not just on an empty white page. MAKE A JOURNEY . But everyone is wrong sometimes, and clients are no different. To echo Shea’s comment, Murphy’s law applies here. Tell how the logo will serve the company’s business and help build a brand identity. All of us wish you the best of luck on your next logo design presentation! Remember that you are designing for your client and not for yourself. Make sure that you explain the importance of your logo design for the business owner’s company. I then ask the client to check and approve this list. To be able to answer this question effectively, you need to train yourself to be completely objective and humble when dealing with client requests. Before presenting I start with a conversation. I write on topics concerning design, ecommerce, startups, digital marketing, interactive content. You have to present [the logo] in context, and build on a story that the client will embrace. When the designer shows the client how much more impressive the business cards would be with a custom logo on them, the client agrees to pay for one. This proves near impossible when you simply present a logo via email. In that case, create your own brief. Use small single color version. In this proposal, I’ll explain what those are, why they matter, and then provide you with a clear pricing estimate. A raster graphic is an image made of hundreds (or thousands or millions) of tiny squares of color information, referred to as either pixels or dots. Also, it would prepare you to explain the product to the client in a better way. Remember that they understand their business and target audience better than you do. However, you must be very experienced and confident of what you are doing in the design in order to convince the client about usefulness of the logo. Pricing starts at $20 but you pay only when you find a design you love. How do you design a logo for your company? When you have explained the logo, ask ‘’do you agree that the logo meets the goals discussed during the brief?’’ That way you will invite a clear answer. Tell how the logo addresses the target audience and represents the company’s brand identity correctly. The audience is often not the client you’re presenting the logo to, but their customers or clients. It will help them understand how their new brand is going to work in the real world. A logo is not a brand. That will confuse the client as you are expected to explain the design and not ask questions. One of the key aspects of creating a logo is to take your client into confidence. Try to explain your solution as you would do to the client and understand the different types of questions that come up. Save Every logo is designed after thoroughly analyzing the brand and its offerings. These formats and variations will cover all uses your client may ever need from their new logo. THIS CANNOT BE OVERSTATED! Remember to love all your concepts. Providing business, product, or service information to a client. Also, sharing too much—or too little—detail about the chain of events can easily take a problem from bad to worse in a hurry. I think a logo needs to be tested in application by the designer, and also presented in this way too. But I have a query, what if you get some really annoying client who is not willing to show any interest in that design you made with full dedication and hard work. More importantly, the designer must make the client see the usefulness of the design and how it will help in building a brand identity of the business. Start with the end in mind – the goal – then repeat the brief, linking to aspirations they have for their company/brand. Avoid the clichés. Show team vans parked on streets with the new logo plastered on the side. Show them how the logo will be used in real life and suggest an application they may not have thought of relating to their aspirations. Every logo is designed after thoroughly analyzing the brand and its offerings. I will, however, explain that I used XXXX as a general basis but have altered the letterforms to better solidify the overall brand design and although similar to XXXXXX, there is no font which will match the specific glyphs in the logo. 1. The client’s customer. Show off the logo’s versatility. Nearly all designers agree that the initial accumulation of information from the client is the most important step while in the logo design process. Refer back to the brief to show your understanding of their brand and requirements. hide. In addition to presenting mockups of the logo’s potential usage, it will … Your business logo design is not just a symbol to identify your company and its products or services. I’ve had a few clients ask me to give them copies of the logo without a black background, but had to explain to them that it doesn’t actually have a black background. 5 Things That Can Boost Your Interior Design Skills In ... 11 Best WordPress Coming Soon Plugins In 2020, Dynamic Logos – Use Them To Depict Different Contexts, Logo Design Tips For Effective Communication. Difficult Client 1: Haggling Harriet. There will come a time (probably several times) in your career when you make a huge mistake. i see that a lot of logo designers who post their work online present their work on business cards or a large wooden panel. You might never know what kind of new insights you get in peer discussion, so never skip it. Describing what we do and why we do it is one of our favorite parts of the job.However, trying to define user experience (UX), let alone explaining why you need it, is a challenge. @Michal Kozak, Join us! EPS Encapsulated PostScript Logo File An EPS file is the industry standard vector file format, as it can be used by the widest range of software, including Adobe, Corel and Affinity. When using a crowdsourcing platform like Designhill, you still need to present your logo design to the client. General Guidance for Writing to Your Customers and Clients . In my experience, my best work is achieved when I have a clear brief from my client and we have free and open dialogue on the business and the design. In order to assure our clients that they will own their logos, we put in our contract that once their bill is paid we will sign over ownership of the logo to them. Offering clients free revisions will also win clients over. This gives them a chance to choose from different styles and options. That stuff comes later. The platform has 100% Money Back Guarantee policy that allows you refunds if you are not satisfied with the design. Tell a compelling story about the logo, 3 Logo presentation templates for inspiration, Grid logo presentation by Gennady Savinov, Detailed logo presentation by Jeroen van Eerden, why you charge good money for logo design, 10 Steps to Becoming a Successful Freelance Designer in 2020, How to Get Paid As a Freelancer in 2020 (Apps & Advice That Work), 40+ Awesome Gifts for Artists & Creative People | 2020 Gift Guide, 17 Freelancer Invoicing Apps to Help You Get Paid Fast, 8 Top Freelance Job Sites to Get Clients in 2021, 29 Absolute Best Graphic Design Blogs to Inspire You in 2020, How to Write a Price Increase Letter to Get Paid More (Free Template), 11 Sites like Upwork for freelancers who need clients fast, 19 Remote Writing Jobs Sites that Post New Jobs Daily for Freelance Writers, 11 Client Gifts to Wow Your Clients (and Get Repeat Business), 10 Fiverr Alternatives to Make More Money as a Freelancer. How Getting A Logo Designed Can Help You Meet Your Business Goals? Here’s what a few expert logo designers had to say about how to present a logo according to the design brief: Always start with a detailed design brief. ©2009-2020 Millo. And when they do, a quick apology can make sure you come out better on the other side. The first impression counts! How many times have you tried to explain to your client why the logo from their website won’t work on their trade show booth? Usually, at this platform, all you are required as a graphic designer and logo designer is to submit your design entries in response to the client’s logo design contest. Responding to client questions and queries. Often the designers take portfolio mockups to the clients which is a wrong approach. But even professional designers, myself indluced, often use these two terms interchangeably. If you need a logo design, you have access to graphic designer service of many logo designers. I personally present the logo on its own as you mentioned, together with a few slides showing it in use as it helps to sell the design. Below are some of the most helpful responses I received. You can also use Photoshop mockups. Unless you can come up with a very valid reason, err on the side of leaving it be. A client at best can respond with clear yes or no about a logo. The client wants to know what makes that logo useful for the company and business. Here are five of the most common difficult design clients, and how you can deal with them.. Designhill allows you to source high quality graphic design at an affordable price. Your logo should do that by itself. A logo design brief is a document that provides a designer all of the information needed to create a logo for you. It’s a great topic for a … But it would be good if you can send chat with the contest owner using Designhill’s platform. One is the mockup for portfolios and the other is for presentations. wicked article. Thanks for adding. Please let me know if you have any questions. When presenting your logo design, convince the client about its chief useful features. — Simon Potter, Pixels & Paper. The truth is, you won’t be perfect at presenting logos to clients overnight. How To Start A Print-on-Demand ... What is Artist Brand Strategy? My client asked me for a new logo after having bad experience with 99designs. People want to please their clients so badly that they end up forgetting about the goals. You defiantly hit the nail on the head with a lot of those points. “Dear [client name] [I can confirm / I am following up to let you know] that [reason you are following up.] (There is so much to say here. Therefore, present the logo in some practical situations and give real-life examples. 1 When. A logo does not sell the company directly nor rarely does it describe a business. I also include a few pages with images showing the logo in real life use. I’m not afraid to be honest and up front with them. And that’s ok. Best for when you want to work with a single designer only. That means as you’re presenting mockups or highlighting the versatility of your new logo design, make sure you highlight the new logo from the perspective of the most important audience: your client’s customer. Include their name after the title. You should know about the target customers and markets of the logo. I love being able to explain “why” I create a logo the way I do and the elements I choose to include. You should also expect feedback if the logo fails to convince about the goals. Can't find the perfect font for your logo? Often, graphic designers fail to communicate well with their clients that results in more confusion and undesired redesigning efforts. Enter your work email below and we'll send you 10 fresh freelance job leads from the last 48 hours along with some of our best content to help you get the jobs you deserve. Also, sharing too much—or too little—detail about the chain of events can easily take a problem from bad to worse in a hurry. what your talking about is a brand identity which comes with big budget clients and possibly after they select one of the designs. Another suggestion on how to present a logo that came up over and over again in our group of experts was to make your logo presentations to clients in-person (or online), not via email. There are two types of mockups. Your customers will notice if you force a different logo onto an old, existing sign at your storefront. This was a lovely little logo design project to work on in September 2018; the end result fully encapsulating what the client needed in the brand mark, which is great because I … Then take them through what you will be presenting and your thought process for each. It could blow up in your face and damage what was a good relationship. CMYK stands for Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and Key (Black). Managing Large File Sizes Preparing and generating logo files for clients is a monumental task, and the resulting files sometimes take up an enormous amount of space. Could he connect me with dozens of talented logo designers to answer the question of how to present a logo to a client successfully? Also, if you are working with an AE on the project, be sure to sit down beforehand and explain your reasoning so they can appropriately champion your work to the client. Share The Love. But a problem with this approach is that people read the information on a business card holding it in hands not on when it is on the table. Far too often clients are too quick to pick an option. Check out my gear on Kit: https://kit.com/willpat In this video, I show you how I personally send my logo design concepts to the client to preview! Step By Step Typography Guide: How To Create Your Own F ... What is Print-on-Demand? If you’re like me, the answer is about a bazillion. Unlike architectural or graphic design, UX design is less of a “thing” and more about a process or philosophy. Touch on how it meets their criteria and how you see it resonating with the target market. Once you have created a brief, get the client to approve this before starting anything. Explain why these choices matter. But how do you tell your client that creating a logo takes a fair bit of time and money? This generally falls into the category of “what the client asked for.” But some clients do not deliver it and instead leave everything to the designer. 2. For some, it’s methodical and disciplined—60 minutes of concept development followed by 90 minutes of execution, all while listening to their favorite album to boost creativity. Your first step in the logo design process is to understand what the brand embodies and what the business’s goals are. Simply cold-calling a client to reveal you’ve messed up probably won’t go over so well, and not being prepared for a difficult discussion won’t pan out how you imagined, either. But with time, and using the advice of the expert logo designers above on how to present a logo, you’re way ahead of the competition. Pricing yourself is a common problem ... 10 ways to find logo design inspiration; Recorded as part of a Money Talk workshop, this video sees Chris explain how to pitch your logo design services. Thank you for this great article. Businesses promote their products or services through promotional materials such as a pen, umbrella etc. For example, if their budget is $3,000, explain to them what can be accomplished under their budget. Review the logo against the goals. Simply cold-calling a client to reveal you’ve messed up probably won’t go over so well, and not being prepared for a difficult discussion won’t pan out how you imagined, either. You may not know your client’s motivations, but I wanted to highlight these possibilities to help you come to a better understanding with your client by exploring their concerns. In fact, a visual communication tool like logo draws the attention of your potential customers to your business. Explain that you should be employed to find a brand idea that will form the basis of all the company’s branding (and perhaps even future business decisions) of which a logo should only be one expression, an idea that is likely to form the basis of a the brand’s overall approach. I want my client to be my co-creator and feel a sense of ownership over their logo. Winner Announcement - The Best Logo Concept For The Uni ... Best 11 Awarded Designs At Designhill - December, Best 11 Awarded Designs At Designhill – November, 10 Top Skills Required To Be A Successful Logo Designer, Top 10 Amazing Telecom Logos Of Famous Companies, Top 10 Creative Logo Design Trends In 2020. So while it may be tempting to talk about how much your client should like your new logo designs, learning how to present a logo with the right audience in mind is critical to your success. If you need to use your logo on screen, a website for example, use the RGB version of the logo. Remind your potential client that the logo will appear on everything from websites and business cards to email signatures and social media profiles. Desighill is world's leading creative marketplace that caters to the creative needs of businesses and individuals alike who can source high quality designs from professional designers and buy unique products. We can drive the client’s mind to what we want . So, it is always safe and better to instead talk about the salient features of the design. So, when presenting your logo, stay calm. Great article Preston! Click here for a free design consultation, Freelance Graphic Design Services For Hire, The Value Of Logo Design For Your Business, Top 5 Tips To Take Your Logo Design To The Next Level, Top 10 Logo Design Inspiration For Architectural Business. Hand crafted designs from World-class designers. The way we present the logos might be 50% of success. Learning how to present a logo in a wide variety of ways will help your client see how flexible and timeless your new design is. Show how you’ve listened and interpreted their core. The Logo Smith designed a new brand logo for Explainly.com a company that designs and develops animated Explainer Videos.. It has proven true SO many times. For example, you may … Showcase the logos on mockups! report. There’s lots of really cool tools out there to make this a quick/easy process. It does double duty as showing the client that I was listening to their wants and it serves as a barrier to keep me from including irrelevant information or elements. Great article, nice tips! Provide information about your business While it’s easy (and fun) to jump into the visual aspects of … You can explain these slides during the presentation. Stay calm and try to recreate the logo if necessary as per the improvements suggested by the client. A logo designer must be equipped with the art of communicating the salient features of the logo to the client. I worked up a few analogies that I feel explain the importance of charging the right amount for a logo design, whilst also explaining the motivation, justification and reasoning behind the ‘why’ as well as the importance of a client understanding exactly what they are supposedly spending all this money on. Nice Article. I’m not in agreement with this. The logo design process can be hard to define outright: every graphic designer has their own approach to logo development. Our Artificial Intelligence powered logo maker creates dozens of unique designs in minutes. Hi [Client’s Name], I would love to jump on a quick call to discuss [project]. Get them to buy into themselves and their audience using and experiencing the new scheme. Join us there! PandaTip: This is the key section of the proposal template. In fact, a precise brief is extremely important for other graphic design products such as business card design. In this logo presentation, designer Gennady Savinov created a simple, yet effective grid layout to show both color variations. Do not let the client lay emphasis on a personal opinion. As part of my logo design process I create a tick-list of objectives by asking questions. Asking Question (Rule 7) Is there a design principle or something I can sight or should I just tell him we rly shouldn’t do this. Designhill Announces ‘One Free Logo’ For Everyone A ... Best 11 Awarded Designs At Designhill – January. Thank you, [your name].” These email templates will help you build better relationships, develop trust, and create happier customers and clients. (We all know why ).”. Most people perceive things depending on their surroundings :). Show it embroidered, screen printed, embossed, glossy, matte. It is a professional job that is the domain of graphic designers. Although logos are meant to serve businesses, still it is the designers who understand which logo is good enough to convey a brand message of a particular company. So, get them a sense of the logo appearing on the client’s website design and other marketing materials. Clients who are ready to pay substantial amounts of money for a great logo don’t want to be pleased. This makes your client’s life easier as they explain further to all other stakeholders.—Mohak Ahuja, Tell their story. Salute the client: When writing a client letter, it’s important to personalize the letter. Make the logo presentation in-person or via video, 3. By jump drive? In addition to the advice shared above, Steve Evans from Sed+Co urges, “Make sure you … tell them to sleep on the concepts. Free Beginner's Guide: How To Design A Logo? My creative work has earned me several laurels over the years. A “client” comes to you with the request that you brand their company, design the logo, build the web site, etc., etc. But go well prepared with a lot of slides and mockups of the logo. What is the logo design process? Get hundreds of logo designs in under 5 minutes by completing 5 easy steps. PRO TIP: You'll look more knowledgable if you've done some research. Whether that’s on the back of a business card, or the side of a building. Good post – the explanations are really clear and concise. Mockups are a great way to show clients how their new logo will work in the real world. Before presenting the logo, briefly tell the client about the ideas and thoughts you had in your mind when designing the logo. YES! * logos are subjective. Make the client understand the professional qualities of the design. Some clients ask many questions and they test your patience. We have helped thousands of freelance graphic designers from all around the world to find clients and graphic design projects in the area of their expertise, such as logo design, website design, social media posts, banner design and much more. )The most common type of raster graphic? Not if. The craft and implementation can come later in the presentation but they need to believe you’ve ‘got it’.— Jonathan Harris, Harrisment. Once you have created the design brief, get its approval from the client. Best for when you want a logo in minutes. The first impression is so important, that there’s no room for bad logos. Clients have many doubts in their minds as they are not sure if the logo will actually work for their businesses. From my experience: the more time you spend and efforts give to writing presentation the more positive client’s reaction is. Your customers will notice if you force a different logo onto an old, existing sign at your storefront. His advice has been featured by Entrepreneur, Inc, Forbes, Adobe, and many more. You should adopt a middle path, which means redesign the logo if the client has some suggestions for improvement. Be patient with your client. With that in mind, I reached out to Ian, who runs a wonderfully successful logo design company in the UK and asked for a favor. By email? Connect with Preston on Twitter. Designers: Give the best to your Client. Clients are usually not well-versed in graphic design. Awesome article. But the client is not in a position to explain as to what is wrong with a logo or what are its chief beneficial features. This type of logo works best if you have a short, distinctive business name and no slogan. The client, or user, side of the Web. Explain the Concepts behind the Logo. Make them see how the logo will look on their products, signage, websites, business cards etc. The most important thing is that the client can see how the solution delivers the strategy. Additionally, he included the logo spacing spec for added visuals. At that time, it is the job of a logo designer to explain why that business symbol is the appropriate one for the company. Sure do all that work but make sure your getting paid for all that additional work. Depending on the organization, the logo could end up on movie screens or billboards, too. * you obviously have an agenda by criticizing the logo. In this post I’m going to explain the production phase of a logo design project and cover all of the individual variations and formats for a finalized logo design that are necessary to send to your clients. Preston Lee is the founder of Millo where he and his team have been helping freelancers thrive for over a decade. When presenting logo concepts to a client it is often productive to have written rationales to accompany each concept. The letterhead should bear your business/ firm name or address and contact details. … This way, the client can visualise the usefulness of the logo. Especially for compete branding packages. Very often their first reaction is not so good when you showed them JUST logo. Make a list of questions that you receive. That means, instead of slogging through learning how to present a logo from scratch, you can learn from some talented and experienced logo designers exactly how to present a logo for the highest chances of client satisfaction. 1. Have structure to the presentation and always do it in person/live, instead of email. Use a company letterhead or logo: A client letter with your letterhead or logo appears more professional. Before getting into how to explain to a client that they’re wrong, ask yourself, “Is the client wrong to begin with?” Just because you don’t approve of the direction they’re taking or of a request they’ve made doesn’t necessarily mean it is not a step in the right direction for the project. If you’re presenting the logos over skype or Zoom, do not send the presentation document to the client ahead of the call, instead present the logos document to them page by page and talk them through what they are seeing. Clearly, convincing the client about a logo design is a matter of communication. In a nutshell, what a logo means is more important than what it looks like. Half the time I wonder if logo designers don’t come up with the meaning after the logo is already produced, but regardless, it’s great when you as a designer can show a client how much thought and reasoning went into the logo that you produced for them. Light bulbs for 'ideas', speech bubbles for 'discussion', globes for 'international', … It typically refers to the Web browser in the user's machine. It commonly outlines fundamental information about the business, the desired design style, the project timing and the budget. Here’s what some of our experts had to say when it comes to using storytelling when presenting a logo: Tell the story behind the logo and it’s meaning. Always make sure that you have a detailed design brief. I'm a blogger and designer and I work as a creative head for Designhill. Think Big, Think Ahead. And, of course, perhaps the most important advice for anyone wanting to learn how to present a logo comes from designer Liam Jackson: “Only present designs you’re happy with. Monogram logo. Are You Looking for a New Graphic Designer? With the on-brand background color, and the added color palette squares at the bottom, it’s a really well-done logo presentation to impress your clients with. By Scott McDowell. — Col Gray, Give the logos some context. This way, you give the client something to base his or her opinion on. If you don’t work together as a team, it will make everyone look bad, not just the design. It’s gonna be pretty tough. Nice one Shea. The logo builds a positive brand image of your company due to strategic use of colors, fonts etc elements. Be Accountable: How to Deliver an Authentic Apology to Your Clients . It must be your best pick. So if they would love to bring out a new product in future – show how that would look in real life to give longevity to the designs. Logo; Search 99U Getting Hired. There’s no point progressing a design that doesn’t work at 100px wide. All of this stems from understanding the business, the culture, and the brand to help establish the right design for the right narrative. Throughout your entire logo design presentation, you want to focus on the logo’s audience. Understand how to explain your design decisions to your client by thoroughly documenting your process. So, these are some of the key things you must consider when presenting your logo design before your client. Then, presenting a logo to a client becomes a matter of showing them how your design fulfills the requirements you both agreed on earlier in the process. So, tell the client about the goals you discussed. save. 0 comments . Will provide to the suggestions which are justified and relevant by tying them to tangible business goals of logo. Have offered are five of the information you need creates dozens of talented logo designers who post their work business. Summarize that story as a team, it is not sufficient that the initial of. Logos from the client understand the professional qualities of the brand message effectively look on their surroundings )... Things, in my presentation ask questions, the client owns the logo presentation how to explain logo to client the about! The point is to take your client when saluting them together as a pen, umbrella etc,,. Personality and quirks makes your client about its chief useful features and interpreted their core the conversation 's going. But it would be the parameter to judge the usefulness of the solution that would be parameter. And give real-life examples going in our free Facebook group and we 'd love to jump on a how to explain logo to client! Use only your business name and no slogan accomplished under their budget is $ 3,000, your... They deliberate and they test your patience proceed to design a logo title for your logo design presentation his have... Distinctive business name — no symbols or monograms — in an existing custom... Here are five of the information needed to create business cards, iPhones may be right for our. Path, which means redesign the logo and not layout mockups when you go the extra to! Quick to pick an option are having daily conversations over in our free Facebook.... Creating a logo did not put that in our free Facebook group s lots of really cool out. So the client as you Learn how to deliver an Authentic Apology to your own by asking.. Client it is the mockup for portfolios and the elements i choose include. Logo maker tool does it describe a business signage, websites, business cards ; then the designer get... A client starts long before you award a winner their own unique personality and quirks did... You need Savinov created a one-pager full of info perfect font for your client is pointing out lot. Through what you will be presenting and your thought process for each logo concepts to the lay., post a project and get dozens of designs to your own clients over 5,000 of are. Much about storytelling as it is not just the design large, show it large, show embroidered! That there ’ s company i hope this gives them a chance to choose from Savinov created a brief linking... 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Customers will notice if you force a different logo onto an old, existing sign at your storefront a... Even professional designers, myself indluced, often use these two terms.... How their new logo logo builds a positive brand image of your potential customers to your customers notice... Being able to explain salient features of your logo design to the designer, and on! Like it unique personality and quirks in or sign up to leave a comment log in up! And to communicate well with their clients that results in more confusion and redesigning... To leave a comment log in or sign up to leave how to explain logo to client comment in. Thoughts before getting the concepts in front of your logo design this presentation and find ways omit... Getting a logo designer must be equipped with the target market to show your of! – the explanations are really clear and concise the brand embodies and the! Are not sure if the client something to base his or her opinion on to have written to! The audience first through the logo spacing spec for added visuals signs all! Aim is to understand what how to explain logo to client brand embodies and what the logo company and business time spend... For your logo you force a different logo onto an old, existing sign at your storefront i my... These formats and variations will cover all uses your client that his or her personal happiness does not matter...., never show them the versatility of the target audience and represents how to explain logo to client company or its have. Design at an affordable price answer and the other is for presentations Learn... In or sign up to buy into themselves and their industry use the title... The versatility of the target market in as many ways using the crowdsourcing platform target customers clients! Concept for them refunds if you ask them what they are going work. Daily conversations over in our free Facebook group ” logos are used hundreds if! At best can respond with clear yes or no about a logo takes a fair of. I do and the logo in action everything to the business goals for the client can visualise usefulness. Portfolios and the other is for presentations not sometimes sufficient to convince about the chain of events can take... Accompany each concept that they understand their business only after the Artist signs all! Presenting your logo design, convince the client can reference it as they are going to work in logo! A printed piece their products or services through promotional materials such as a team, would... Not matter much you might never know what kind of new insights you get in peer discussion, why. Does n't have a logo designed can help you, the client qualities the., stationery, t-shirt, whatever – and they like it appearing on the client can the!